Lok Pal Bill

[orion]

In the spirit of Sr Fan's call for posting what's important to you as a citizen ... here is my attempt to express myself on Jan Lok Pal/Lok Pal bill.

 

As a disclaimer, I present myself as not having read everything in the jan lok pal or lok pal (from govt) bill ... so, bare with me.

 

Here are my thoughts:

- Is it wise to give uncontrolled power to an entity that is not accountable to anybody else.

- The members of Lokpal are good and honest at the moment, what regulates that body? how do we know they are going to be honest in the future ? What keeps tabs on them?

- If we are in the middle of 'shaking the nest', why not talk about the uselessness of Indian President and governor ship. As long as I can remember, they never served any purpose in Indian democracy.

- Get rid of nominated positions.

- Make PM directly electable by popular vote and accountable to people, not as some nominated position (this gets rid of people of like Sonia and her coterie).

- Bring PM into some kind of scrutiny under the guidance of Lokpal.

- Lokpal members, as it is now, do not represent people. Some are honest and some have their own agenda. As bad as our elected reps are, they atleast have to come in front of people every few years. That means, people have a chance to correct things. Without it, we are looking at communism.

 

 

I profoundly respect this DB. There are many thoughtful members here. I encourage you to express yourself freely.

[chsrk]

In the spirit of Sr Fan's call for posting what's important to you as a citizen ... here is my attempt to express myself on Jan Lok Pal/Lok Pal bill.

 

As a disclaimer, I present myself as not having read everything in the jan lok pal or lok pal (from govt) bill ... so, bear with me.

 

Here are my thoughts:

- Is it wise to give uncontrolled power to an entity that is not accountable to anybody else.

 

It is not about giving unlimited power to an unknown entity. As long as you have persons of repute who are untainted and integrity well established and free from political interference. It is natural to expect Justice. For Instance. Lok Ayuktha in Karnataka had done a pretty decent job.

- The members of Lokpal are good and honest at the moment, what regulates that body? how do we know they are going to be honest in the future ? What keeps tabs on them?

 

Persons of exemplary service throughout their career can be inducted into these Modies. At any certain point we need to have trust on them, atleast to a certain extent. We can't go on endlessly having checks on each and every body. Only inducting Persons of Integrity and proven merit could be a possible solution. Even if somebody misuses these positions, Judicial opinion can be the other option where we can judge their merits and demerits..

 

- If we are in the middle of 'shaking the nest', why not talk about the uselessness of Indian President and governor ship. As long as I can remember, they never served any purpose in Indian democracy.

 

Indian President in the central level and Governors at the State levels had their own roles to play, to safegaurd the constitution. If some of them had acted otherwise, It is the individuals who had to be blamed and not the institution itself..

 

- Get rid of nominated positions.

 

They need to be there for Meritorious people irrespective of political affliations to be inducted into the system. Sadly this institution is also misused, which doesn't mean we need to get rid of it..But rather make good use of it..

- Make PM directly electable by popular vote and accountable to people, not as some nominated position (this gets rid of people of like Sonia and her coterie).

As per our constitution, our PM may be only first among the MPs and he gets into that office through the election by the majority of MPs. Sadly Leaders like Manmohan made the Institution of PM look so miserable. But may be an American type of System with the Executive having more powers can be a fancy idea..May be a good idea too...

 

 

- Bring PM into some kind of scrutiny under the guidance of Lokpal.

That needs to be done..

 

- Lokpal members, as it is now, do not represent people. Some are honest and some have their own agenda. As bad as our elected reps are, they atleast have to come in front of people every few years. That means, people have a chance to correct things. Without it, we are looking at communism.

Media has also a noble role to play in this. Should give them some space out of their busy schedule. People should also evince interest in such things. It is a mutual thing between Media and People. Most often they display their activities through their website which may not be sufficient and perhaps they need more exposure..I profoundly respect this DB. There are many thoughtful members here. I encourage you to express yourself freely.

[Gunner]

How does Lokpal bill benefit common man? as long as Govt officials who work at root level are corrupted and doesn't care about public, life of common man wouldn't change. I think, we should look to reform the root level system and make all the officers accountable to "public".

[chsrk]

How does Lokpal bill benefit common man? as long as Govt officials who work at root level are corrupted and doesn't care about public, life of common man wouldn't change. I think, we should look to reform the root level system and make all the officers accountable to "public".

 

Lok pal bill for the Central Level..Lok ayuktha at the state level is there to check corruption in the administrative machinery..Kaapala kaayalsina kukka nidra fotha unte dongalu valla fani vallu soosukuntaaru..Karnataka lo Lok ayuktha played a significant role at times...Avineethi adhikaarula gundello raillu farigettichchchaaru..

[orion]

How does Lokpal bill benefit common man? as long as Govt officials who work at root level are corrupted and doesn't care about public, life of common man wouldn't change. I think, we should look to reform the root level system and make all the officers accountable to "public".

 

The idea is, if you make elected reps accountable to 'something' (that something being Lokpal), they will make govt officials accountable to people. In principle, its actually a good idea ... problem is, they are trying to give too much power to one entity that is not accountable to anything. Who Lokpal members are accountable to? How are they selected/elected to serve in that committee? Is that committee beyond the question of any other democratic authority? If it is ... its not a good thing. Corruption is natural, it will manifest through the ranks ... no matter how noble particular organization is. Only thing to counter this is, the balance of power (again, I don't claim to know lokpal bill in detail or its intricacies), which to my layman eye, is lacking at the moment.

[orion]

Avineethi adhikaarula gundello raillu farigettichchchaaru..

 

They apparently haven't 'run' anything in anyone's heart in the case of Gaali brothers. So, they have their limitations.

[chsrk]

They apparently haven't 'run' anything in anyone's heart in the case of Gaali brothers. So, they have their limitations.

 

You are true..But I meant to say as far as Lok ayuktha was considered..It played a significant role in Karnataka in bringing fear into the minds of Corrupt officials in Karnataka at one point of time. Doesn't mean that they had their own lapses. We shouldn't also forget that Gaali brothers are no govt. officials and Politicians dont fall into the purview of Lok ayuktha..

 

..

[Sr Fan]

In the spirit of Sr Fan's call for posting what's important to you as a citizen ... here is my attempt to express myself on Jan Lok Pal/Lok Pal bill.

 

As a disclaimer, I present myself as not having read everything in the jan lok pal or lok pal (from govt) bill ... so, bear with me.

 

Here are my thoughts:

- Is it wise to give uncontrolled power to an entity that is not accountable to anybody else.

- The members of Lokpal are good and honest at the moment, what regulates that body? how do we know they are going to be honest in the future ? What keeps tabs on them?

- If we are in the middle of 'shaking the nest', why not talk about the uselessness of Indian President and governor ship. As long as I can remember, they never served any purpose in Indian democracy.

- Get rid of nominated positions.

- Make PM directly electable by popular vote and accountable to people, not as some nominated position (this gets rid of people of like Sonia and her coterie).

- Bring PM into some kind of scrutiny under the guidance of Lokpal.

- Lokpal members, as it is now, do not represent people. Some are honest and some have their own agenda. As bad as our elected reps are, they atleast have to come in front of people every few years. That means, people have a chance to correct things. Without it, we are looking at communism.

 

 

I profoundly respect this DB. There are many thoughtful members here. I encourage you to express yourself freely.

 

 

Same thing here bro regarding the bill, and I am not aware of all the key things in that. You have put a lot on the table, but all of them are very good ones, most of us must have thought one way or the other for some time regarding these things.

 

In India the Institutional Corruption from high ranking politicians at this moment is very high, it surely feels like we should have something rolling.

 

I agree, in general any institution that did not have any control sure and definitely will abuse its powers. No question about it, principle wise.

 

I also agree without accountability and trusting few individuals with no monitoring is not good. Similarly as communism like you said, It is not about Intent it should be about Results. Long history suggests, every dictator or fascist or group of powerful people or group of intellectuals, they all say they have good intent.... We all know what happens...

 

Nominated positions are waste. As predicted by the TDP founder long ago, these will become sanctuaries for the politically well connected and extra political positions for self serving people. I never understood that elder's(???) communion, since a special talented person like Lata mangeshkar(being a good citizen & popular) can most probably get elected from the choice of her party if she wishes to stand in election. At the same time big talented person like painter M F husain(given his track record with the majority of public sentiments and his questionable works on the country's pride & culture itself) should not get nominated by indirect way(mlc or rajyasabha etc). This is just may be a copy of British system, that wont fit our structure I believe.

 

PM also under the Lokpal, why not?

 

I will chip in along the way if I have more relevant info.

[chsrk]

The Jan Lokpal Bill (Citizen's ombudsman Bill) is a draft anti-corruption bill drawn up by prominent civil society activists seeking the appointment of a Jan Lokpal, an independent body that would investigate corruption cases, complete the investigation within a year and envisages trial in the case getting over in the next one year.

 

Drafted by Justice Santosh Hegde (former Supreme Court Judge and present Lokayukta of Karnataka), Prashant Bhushan (Supreme Court Lawyer) and Arvind Kejriwal (RTI activist), the draft Bill envisages a system where a corrupt person found guilty would go to jail within two years of the complaint being made and his ill-gotten wealth being confiscated. It also seeks power to the Jan Lokpal to prosecute politicians and bureaucrats without government permission.

 

Retired IPS officer Kiran Bedi and other known people like Swami Agnivesh, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Anna Hazare and Mallika Sarabhai are also part of the movement, called India Against Corruption. Its website describes the movement as "an expression of collective anger of people of India against corruption. We have all come together to force/request/persuade/pressurize the Government to enact the Jan Lokpal Bill. We feel that if this Bill were enacted it would create an effective deterrence against corruption."

 

 

Anna Hazare, anti-corruption crusader, began a fast-unto-death today, demanding that this bill, drafted by the civil society, be adopted. The website of the India Against Corruption movement calls the Lokpal Bill of the government an "eyewash" and has on it a critique of that government Bill. It also lists the difference between the Bills drafted by the government and civil society.

 

A look at the salient features of Jan Lokpal Bill:

1. An institution called LOKPAL at the centre and LOKAYUKTA in each state will be set up

 

2. Like Supreme Court and Election Commission, they will be completely independent of the governments. No minister or bureaucrat will be able to influence their investigations.

 

3. Cases against corrupt people will not linger on for years anymore: Investigations in any case will have to be completed in one year. Trial should be completed in next one year so that the corrupt politician, officer or judge is sent to jail within two years.

 

4. The loss that a corrupt person caused to the government will be recovered at the time of conviction.

 

5. How will it help a common citizen: If any work of any citizen is not done in prescribed time in any government office, Lokpal will impose financial penalty on guilty officers, which will be given as compensation to the complainant.

 

6. So, you could approach Lokpal if your ration card or passport or voter card is not being made or if police is not registering your case or any other work is not being done in prescribed time. Lokpal will have to get it done in a month's time. You could also report any case of corruption to Lokpal like ration being siphoned off, poor quality roads been constructed or panchayat funds being siphoned off. Lokpal will have to complete its investigations in a year, trial will be over in next one year and the guilty will go to jail within two years.

 

7. But won't the government appoint corrupt and weak people as Lokpal members? That won't be possible because its members will be selected by judges, citizens and constitutional authorities and not by politicians, through a completely transparent and participatory process.

 

8. What if some officer in Lokpal becomes corrupt? The entire functioning of Lokpal/ Lokayukta will be completely transparent. Any complaint against any officer of Lokpal shall be investigated and the officer dismissed within two months.

 

9. What will happen to existing anti-corruption agencies? CVC, departmental vigilance and anti-corruption branch of CBI will be merged into Lokpal. Lokpal will have complete powers and machinery to independently investigate and prosecute any officer, judge or politician.

 

10. It will be the duty of the Lokpal to provide protection to those who are being victimized for raising their voice against corruption.

[chsrk]

 

 

Politicians dont want it to be implemented....Public wants it...So who is going to win in this battle..

[chsrk]

Lokpal Bill and Jan Lokpal Bill

 

Lokpal bill at the current state has lots of loopholes and does not serves the purpose. The Lokpal cannot, under the proposed Bill, investigate any case against the Prime Minister in the arena of external affairs and defence. As a part of this movement, N. Santosh Hegde, a former justice of the Supreme Court of India, Prashant Bhushan, a senior lawyer in the Supreme Court along with the members of the India Against Corruption movement drafted an alternate bill, named as the Jan Lokpal Bill. We need to get this bill passed and implemented with all the loopholes closed, independent from Politicians and bureaucrats, like the Supreme Court of India. This movement from a person like Anna Hazare should be supported by each and every citizen of India and compel the responsible people to take an accepted decision at the earliest.

[chsrk]

History of Lokpal Bill

 

 

This bill has taken 40 years, still not passed by our elected representatives. We had different government in power, but none wanted this to come up as this would be the biggest hurdle for the corrupt politicians. India has changed, the young India, wants a clean India and will do anything and everything to get this done.

 

■The Lokpal bill is an outcome of the findings of the Santhanam Committee for the Prevention of Corruption in 1966.

■Every political party has included the Lokpal bill issue in their election manifesto, but none has implemented it.

■In 2004 our current Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh had promised on this issue, but still nothing has happened

[chsrk]

What are the loopholes of the Lokpal Bill by the Government

 

According to the current version of Lokpal Bill, Lokpal will not have any power to either initiate action suo motu in any case or even receive complaints of corruption from public. This is making the Lokpal bill useless. But according to the Jan Lokpal Bill, full powers to initiate investigations suo motu in any case and also to directly entertain complaints from the public. This is something very important and needs to be addressed by the Government and we see most of the political parties finding this as a threat to them. The Government proposed Lokpal bill does wants the Lokpal to be advisory body and just forward the complaints to the recepective department and does not have any right to register and FIR or police powers. This bill not give power to the Lokpal to do any investigation against the Prime Minister, which deals with foreign affairs, security and defence and also no jurisdiction over bureaucrats and government officers. These are the major lacking of the current version with the Government, but we need a Jan Lokpal bill which is addressing the above mentioned issues. Do support for this bill and try your best to force the Government to do it for us. We are the people who have put them on to rule the country and they will have to do it for us.

[chsrk]

Stunning Letting sent by Anna Hazare to the Prime Minister of India

 

Dear Dr. Singh,

 

I have started my indefinite fast at Jantar mantar. I had invited you also to fast and pray for a corruption free India on 5th April. Though I did not receive any reply from you, I am hopeful that you must have done that. I am pained to read and hear about government’s reaction to my fast. I consider it my duty to clarify the points raised on behalf of Congress party and the government by their spokespersons, as they appear in media:

 

1. It is being alleged that I am being instigated by some people to sit on this fast. Dear Manmohan Singh ji, this is an insult to my sense of wisdom and intelligence. I am not a kid that I could be “instigated” into going on an indefinite fast. I am a fiercely independent person. I take advice from many friends and critics, but do what my conscience directs me to do. It is my experience that when cornered, governments resort to such malicious slandering. I am pained that the government, rather than addressing the issue of corruption, is trying to allege conspiracies, when there are none.

 

2. It is being said that I have shown impatience. Dear Prime Minister, so far, every government has shown complete insensitivity and lack of political commitment to tackling corruption. 62 years after independence, we still do not have independent and effective anti?corruption systems. Very weak versions of Lokpal Bill were presented in Parliament eight times in last 42 years. Even these weak versions were not passed by Parliament. This means, left to themselves, the politicians and bureaucrats will never pass any law which subjects them to any kind of objective scrutiny. At a time, when the country has witnessed scams of unprecedented scale, the impatience of the entire country is justified. And we call upon you, not to look for precedents, but show courage to take unprecedented steps.

 

3. It is being said that I have shown impatience when the government has “initiated” the process. I would urge you to tell me – exactly what processes are underway? a. You say that your Group of Ministers are drafting the anti?corruption law. Many of the members of this Group of Ministers have such a shady past that if effective anticorruption systems had been in place, some of them would have been behind bars. Do you want us to have faith in a process in which some of the most corrupt people of this country should draft the anti?corruption law? b. NAC sub?committee has discussed Jan Lokpal Bill. But what does that actually mean? Will the government accept the recommendations of NAC sub?committee? So far, UPA II has shown complete contempt for even the most innocuous issues raised by NAC. c. I and many other friends from India Against Corruption movement wrote several letters to you after 1st December. I also sent you a copy of Jan Lokpal Bill on 1st December. We did not get any response. It is only when I wrote to you that I will sit on an indefinite fast, we were promptly invited for discussions on 7th March. I wonder whether the government responds only to threats of indefinite fast. Before that, representatives of India Against Corruption had been meeting various Ministers seeking their support for the Jan Lokpal Bill. They met Mr Moily also and personally handed over copy of Jan Lokpal to him. A few hoursbefore our meeting with you, we received a phone call from Mr Moily’s office that the copy of Jan Lokpal Bill had been misplaced by his office and they wanted another copy. This is the seriousness with which the government has dealt with Jan Lokpal Bill. d. Dear Dr Manmohan Singh ji, if you were in my place, would you have any faith in the aforesaid processes? Kindly let me know if there are any other processes underway. If you still feel that I am impatient, I am happy that I am because the whole nation is feeling impatient at the lack of credible efforts from your government against corruption.

 

4. What are we asking for? We are not saying that you should accept the Bill drafted by us. But kindly create a credible platform for discussions – a joint committee with at least half members from civil society suggested by us. Your spokespersons are misleading the nation when they say that there is no precedent for setting up a joint committee. At least seven laws in Maharashtra were drafted by similar joint committees and presented in Maharashtra Assembly. Maharashtra RTI Act, one of the best laws of those times, was drafted by a joint committee. Even at the centre, when 25,000 tribals came to Delhi two years ago, your government set up a joint committee on land issues within 48 hours. You yourself are the Chairperson of that committee. This means that the government is willing to set up joint committees on all other issues, but not on corruption. Why?

 

5. It is being said that the government wants to talk to us and we are not talking to them. This is utterly false. Tell me a single meeting when you called us and we did not come. We strongly believe in dialogue and engagement. Kindly do not mislead the country by saying that we are shunning dialogue. We request you to take some credible steps at stemming corruption. Kindly stop finding faults and suspecting conspiracies in our movement. There are none. Even if there were, it does not absolve you of your responsibilities to stop corruption.

 

With warm regards,

 

K B Hazare

[orion]

 

5. How will it help a common citizen: If any work of any citizen is not done in prescribed time in any government office, Lokpal will impose financial penalty on guilty officers, which will be given as compensation to the complainant.

 

 

Are they serious? They want Lokpal to operate at this level? I don't think it is practical, not to mention it'll be ridiculously complicated to implement and enforce. To some extent, I agree with some of the critics of Jan Lokpal Bill. They are asking too much power without being accountable to anyone else.

[Sr Fan]

‘Utti kegaralenamma swargani kegiri natlu’ - Too much wishful thinking asking some compensation at Mandal office for delayed things at this point.

 

Catch the big whales…. Setup preventive mechanisms…. Improve Transparency….. Strengthen the Democratic Institutions without dismantling or disrespecting unlike Congress folks….

[Sr Fan]

Strictly putting people(guilty) behind bars......Stringent penalties.... Serving Times....Zero Tolerance for convicted white collar crimes....

[Sr Fan]

Not making celebrities out of corrupted crooks like Jagan,Raja,Gaali etc....

[Sr Fan]

Shedding indifference and condemning strongly those kind of activities more important than even recovering material assets...

[orion]

‘Utti kegaralenamma swargani kegiri natlu’ - Too much wishful thinking asking some compensation at Mandal office for delayed things at this point.

 

Catch the big whales…. Setup preventive mechanisms…. Improve Transparency….. Strengthen the Democratic Institutions without dismantling or disrespecting unlike Congress folks….

 

You're right, Jan Lok Pal should focus on having a well defined role that deals with high profile, high impact corruption charges instead of trying to establish an alternative form of govt. Their fight should be focused on getting enough constitutional powers to execute that specific mandate. India is a country with more than billion people, they can't possibly solve everybody's day-to-day problems. We have established systems for that, lets try to improve them first.

 

Telling a local govt official that he should finish a particular case/complaint in certain time frame dictated by Lokpal (God knows how they want to define these at this level), or else impose a financial penalty on the official and give it to complainant? How silly is that? Anyone (in Lokpal group) thought about practicality of that? If they are so ridiculous now (when they are a small group), how is it going to work, when they are actually given power to operate that way? How is it going to be a better system? I don't have crystal ball, but I can see Lokpal failing right here.

 

Oka sametha undi ... penam meeda nunchi poyyilo padinattu ... I don't want to see that happen with this Lokpal thing.

[orion]

Long history suggests, every dictator or fascist or group of powerful people or group of intellectuals, they all say they have good intent.... We all know what happens...

 

Amen to that my friend. I have had enough education and life experience to walk-the-walk with many 'intellectuals'. You're right, they all say the same thing about good intent. It goes back all the way to Roman Senate and before. Basic human instinct, I guess.

 

Nominated positions are waste. As predicted by the TDP founder long ago,

 

Man ... he was SPECTACULAR! The man was beyond his time in every aspect of the phrase.

[chsrk]

Are they serious? They want Lokpal to operate at this level? I don't think it is practical, not to mention it'll be ridiculously complicated to implement and enforce. To some extent, I agree with some of the critics of Jan Lokpal Bill. They are asking too much power without being accountable to anyone else.

 

It is very much practical if the Jan lokpal bill is implemented in its true spirit. Its very common for us to see how small things like birth certificate/residence certificate, passport etc. get too delayed and majority of the time the reason for this delay is Corruption. You bribe them and they deliver you instantly. If Lok ayuktha becomes effective as it was intended it will empower the common man, bring discipline in the official machinery. This govt. machinery has become so used to being lazy that we have almost started thinking that it is impractical. Somehow I support the Jan Lokpal bill as it was intended..Any dilutions to it will only pull the teeth out of this bill..

[chsrk]

‘Utti kegaralenamma swargani kegiri natlu’ - Too much wishful thinking asking some compensation at Mandal office for delayed things at this point.

 

Catch the big whales…. Setup preventive mechanisms…. Improve Transparency….. Strengthen the Democratic Institutions without dismantling or disrespecting unlike Congress folks….

 

 

Shedding indifference and condemning strongly those kind of activities more important than even recovering material assets...

 

Vasu brother...Can you elaborate on these two posts in a little more detail?

 

1. When we aren't in a position to take action on a mere corrupt MRO at a Divisional Level, how are we going to catch big whales..?

2. What preventive measures/mechanisms can be adopted. ?

3. How could we improve transparency.?

 

4. How is condemning strongly more important than recovering materials assets..How is it going to bring a change..Do you have any examples to make it look more clear?.

 

Can you please make it more clear? Please do it only if you have time for it..idhi konchem serious topic kanuka marintha clarity ivvagaluguthaaremo ani aduguthunna anthe...

[orion]

Somehow I support the Jan Lokpal bill as it was intended..Any dilutions to it will only pull the teeth out of this bill..

 

when they are trying to make lokpal go so deep into the society and operate at local official level, enduko ... natural tendency for corruption will eventually creep in ani anispistundi. When they talk at this level, they're taking up a huge task without putting too much thought or detail in its implementation. Don't get me wrong ... like an avg citizen, I want Lokpal to succeed ... I just don't want to see it become an alternative form of bureaucracy.

[Sr Fan]

In the best of times(times like TDP rule in AP) there is no guarantee that a grade four employee in General Hospital Guntur not asking for favor in return of doing his duty.

 

Atleast parties like TDP dont have CMs, ministers,Cronies totally looting state like Congress YSR, ministers, Jagan, Gaali emptying people’s resources.

 

How many parties really faught against that? Looking eye to eye and in war path with the Culprits?

 

Only TDP(to some extent communist parties stood with TDP in the fight). Rest of the parties(BJP,MIM, LokSatta ,TRS, PRP etc) in the state they didn’t have nerve or didn’t want to fight or didn’t have moral clarity about the corruption issue. Any one of them or all of the above. Some have close connections with Congress and Sonia. How can we ask them to fight against Congress & Sonia, every now and then they work with them, close alliances with them. There is no transparency between parties and clandestine connections and alliances.

 

If parties have moral confusion like above how can they fight? Against what? There is no clarity on this kind of issues for them. Recovery and all that, good talk and how many parties really say Congress and YSR and Cronies did corruption ? Did anybody said apart from TDP? First moral stance & courage should be there to condemn and stand against those kind of activities.

 

Is there clarity for parties like MIM,Loksatta,BJP(in AP and Karnataka) in issues like this? Based on their actions(inactions acutally) they don’t have sincerity in this issue. In this political reality, recovery(how many times it happened in Independent India) is far distant topic changer than anything else.

 

First thing is moral clarity for parties. Then political spine to stand against the culprits...

[Sr Fan]

Recovery is the last part(not happened in India as of I know). If we have all the above pieces of the puzzle then we can worry about that. Forget about parties, how many people openly condemn what YSR did? so first things first. Moral Clarity & Courage to stand up and counted when it matters etc.

[chsrk]

when they are trying to make lokpal go so deep into the society and operate at local official level, enduko ... natural tendency for corruption will eventually creep in ani anispistundi. When they talk at this level, they're taking up a huge task without putting too much thought or detail in its implementation. Don't get me wrong ... like an avg citizen, I want Lokpal to succeed ... I just don't want to see it become an alternative form of bureaucracy.

 

First of all to make things clear, This lokpal is not something new and lots of thinking has gone into it. The politicians of this country from the past 40 years are even failing to pass even the abridged version of the lokpal bill in the Parliament. Forget about Jan Lokpal bill. The reasons are simple. This bill will make them more accountable to the common man, empower them and make the administrative machinery more responsible to people, which these gullible politicians really doesn't want that to happen. What they want is powers with no accountability

 

I have seen you saying in previous posts, that this will be a sort of alternative govt. Lok pal or lokayutha will not be an alternative form of govt, it will be like another independent body like the Supreme courts with its own distinct functions and address the grievances of the common man vis-a-vis the administrative machinery. It will surely reduce corruption.

 

Though a negative example I will give you one..Karnataka lo Lokayuktha baaga pani chesindhi okappudu..It instilled a sort of fear in official machinery. akkada oka annaya unnadu..., Lokayuktha ni boochi ga choopinchi..athanu endaru corrupt PWD officials ni blackmail chesi ..He made lots of money..though he used it in a negative way..but i told you this example only to show how it empowers a common man instilling fear in the minds of corrupt officials..

[orion]

First of all to make things clear, This lokpal is not something new and lots of thinking has gone into it.

 

You think making govt officials financially liable to some arbitrary timelines setup by some unknown organization that has no history or accountability is a good thing? You actually think it will work? Good luck with that.

 

You say its been there for decades ... where is the detail? When they say, we WILL make municipal official pay out of his pocket when he doesn't complete your work in certain arbitrary time frame (set by lokpal or lokayuakta or whatever) ... you actually think its practical? Let me ask you again ... how silly is that? When an elderly person goes to municipal office to get pension papers cleared and someone there asks for 'mya mya' ... you think he/she can go to lokpal/lokayuta and complain and get the things done in timely manner? I'd say you are naive. Again, Good luck with it. I hope you succeed ... I say this because my own mother will benefit from that too.

[LION_NTR]

They apparently haven't 'run' anything in anyone's heart in the case of Gaali brothers. So, they have their limitations.

 

 

The problem is that these Gali guys committed more financial atrocities in AP than in karnataka...

kudos to our former Chi Yem!

[chsrk]

You think making govt officials financially liable to some arbitrary timelines setup by some unknown organization that has no history or accountability is a good thing? You actually think it will work? Good luck with that.

 

Making them financially liable is not the only option..one of the many options to make official machinery more accountable. It will not be an unknown organization without any history or accountability, once the Lokpal bill is implemented, it will be a constitutionally empowered body with eminent people in it and they will look into the grievances of the public in a transparent way. I am hopeful it will work and for sure bring lots of changes for good in the long run..

 

You say its been there for decades ... where is the detail

 

The idea of implementing Lokpal and bringing politicians into the purview is not new concept that has come from the blue now. It is mooting around for decades..Many govts. had promised to bring this bill but none kept their promise...Lots of thinking had already gone into it, we are almost sitting on that for the last forty years...but Politicians didn't have the nerve to implement it..

 

? When they say, we WILL make municipal official pay out of his pocket when he doesn't complete your work in certain arbitrary time frame (set by lokpal or lokayuakta or whatever) ... you actually think its practical? Let me ask you again ... how silly is that? When an elderly person goes to municipal office to get pension papers cleared and someone there asks for 'mya mya' ... you think he/she can go to lokpal/lokayuta and complain and get the things done in timely manner? I'd say you are naive. Again, Good luck with it. I hope you succeed ... I say this because my own mother will benefit from that too.

 

The day Lokpal bill is implemented, that is how the scenario is expected to be. You should also note that there will always be a gap between expectations and practicality but still for sure it would bring a change..Public will have a voice..a whip to crack the lazy and corrupt officials..Based on the severity of the lapses, Lokpal Officials will have their own streamlined, transparent and established procedures to make the officials responsible..In their investigation if the fault is clearly established, they will penalize the officials..Penalization can be of several forms which sometimes can also be inflicting financial penalty..based on the severity of the lapse and the inconvenience it has caused to the petitioner..

 

Strong mechanisms of rule of law, independent crime investigation, speedy and

efficient justice are critical to curb corruption and promote a culture of trust and

confidence. Once these are combined with strong, independent ombudsmen like the Lokpal it

acts as a deterrent against corrupt behaviour. While institution building and

preventive vigilance are more effective, they will work only when the punitive

wings are strong. In any society, there is bound to be some abuse of authority

and corruption, and fair, swift, and exemplary punishment for wrongdoing is the

cornerstone of anti-corruption strategies

 

Yes.I am naive..Any progressive looking individual for the moment will appear naive. When someone doesn't know the true value and implications of a Law and if I speak law to them, yes I am naive..Since you are too intelligent let me remind you few things.

 

1. If BR Ambedkar hadn't implemented Reservation Bill in parliament, we would have the Untouchability still going on India. Thanks to the great man, his policy had brought a revolutionary change in the lives of the un-touchables and the down-trodden

2. If we hadn't had laws to provide enough support to women in the form of Dowry laws, we would have been still witnessing hostile situations against many daughter-in laws on a larger scale even now. They were so empowered with these laws that they even started misusing it too..But for sure it has empowered them..You being an intelligent person..I hope you can understand it.

3. I hope you also know about the Right to Information act and the changes it had brought into the system, giving an opportunity for the common man to look inside the system and get the information he wants, paving its own way towards a transparent system..

 

Good luck intelligent man..